There are many Catholics who have often wondered about the “Real Presence” of Christ in the Eucharist. Even priests have been known to have their doubts about the bread they are supposed to have transformed into the Body of Jesus. Protestants, of course, have rejected the literalist Catholic doctrine for five hundred years. As I have already have had occasion in this Blog to remark, respected Catholic theologians sometimes speak of the Eucharist’s “symbolic reality”, which I have always considered a somewhat jesuitical way of denying the Real Presence without getting into trouble with Rome. The Sydney priest-theologian who wrote the book on that concept was himself the Archdiocesan official Censor whose approval was necessary for publication …
But you Believers on the Brink out there, even if you still buy the bit about transubstantiation, there are some doctrines which you have already ditched. Maybe it’s the Ascension of Jesus or the Assumption of Mary or the officially approved miracles necessary for canonization or those miraculous cures at Lourdes declared to be authentic. Why do you still accept certain doctrines and feel comfortable rejecting others ? Surely it must have occurred to you that the whole ball of wax is a fabrication ! I really don’t understand how you can pick and choose. Reread my post on Cherry-Picking.
RIDENDA RELIGIO
Blind Faith: Blind Folly 
Although Limbo was never up there in the category of “official” teaching of the Church, the existence of Limbo was, like the existence of Heaven and Hell, part and parcel of the received wisdom of generations of Catholics. One wonders how many grieving parents have sorrowed over their dead infants’ ineligibility for the choirs of angels.
Limbo was abolished some years ago. One of the arguments advanced in justification of this act of vandalism was that the deceased infants would have chosen to be baptised if they had been able to direct their minds to the matter. QED.
Such creative reasoning will one day transform the unbelievable teaching on transubstantiation.
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It often seemed to me, even as a child, that religious people didn’t behave as if what they claimed to believe was true. Consider this limbo business, for example. Any parent who really believed that a child dying without baptism would be denied entry to heaven wouldn’t wait several weeks, as was usually the case, before having their baby baptised. Given that a child can die at any time, particularly around the time of birth, the Catholic Church should have ensured that a priest was present in every delivery room, ready to carry out the baptism as soon as the head appeared between the mother’s thighs.
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As Hilda has said, it would have been rational and logical to have infants baptised ASAP or even in utero to avoid the risk of an eternity in Limbo.
But one might ask since when has rationality ever been a foundation of Church policy, doctrine or dogma..
What I want to know is where the unbaptised infant who would not have chosen to be baptised if he/she had directed his/her mind to the matter has gone. The poor kid cannot have done anything wrong of course – apart from being tainted with “original” sin. Now there’s something to mull over.
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Hilda,
A priest is not necessary to administer baptism to a Catholic. Any one, even atheists can do it in an emergency, if they know how. This is Church teaching.
In Catholic countries and Catholic hospitals, nurses are usually trained to carry out baptisms, especially for babies, if necessary. Catholic nurses in general hospitals or informed family members will often perform the Sacrament.
Also, Limbo, is regarded as a place of unimagined happiness, better than anything on earth. It is not an absolute Church doctrine.
The Catholic Catechism now indicates that even though Christ has said that baptism is essential for salvation, the Church entrusts unbaptised innocents to the mercy of God, who is well capable of acting justly and mercifully in each situation. So, whether via Limbo or some other means, known only to God, we mere mortals need not worry. The matter is in the capable hands of our creator.
Our poor atheist friends are constantly lamenting the injustices and suffering that God seems to allow. Believers trust in God’s mercy to act justly in the after life. Believe me, as long as we trust in a merciful and just God, we can be content and not be ranting on a daily basis at the self imposed consequences of not believing in God. Who would want to be a miserable atheist?
It is essential for Catholics to follow the Church’s teaching and develop an adult understanding, progressively as they mature.
It is disappointing to find Catholics making shallow, uninformed and misleading statements.
The Compendium of the Catholic Catechism can easily be obtained and read by any adult Catholic in a few hours, and helps rebuttal of misinformed or mischievous claims, as constantly spewed forth in this website.
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Somehow discussions about Limbo, impanation or transubwhatever, Augustine’s great contribution to Godology which is Original Sin, Father Bryan Byron’s “symbolic reality”, all bring to mind the bit about angels on the heads of pins. It is great to have Hilda’s and Thom’s help in underlining the blind folly of blind faith.
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Ah! Original sin. I once asked a priest about this during a retreat held at my school. It was a question and answer session for which we had been instructed to write a question on a piece of paper and put it in a sealed box. The priest then drew some out at random and answered them – or not, as you will see. My question was along the lines of: Why do all humans have to be punished for the sins of Adam and Eve? It doesn’t seem very fair to me.
The priest erupted with rage. Who was the child who had dared to question the wisdom and justice of God? (A rhetorical question, fortunately. No further steps were taken to identify me). After a few more scathing comments about the hubristic nature of the questioner, he tossed my question into the wastepaper basket and moved on to the next.
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The original sin surely was eating the apple in the garden which doesn’t seem all that original to me – particularly when one considers the various permutations and combinations described in the Karma Sutra.
Then again when one examines the implications of evolution which few reject today perhaps the original sin consisted in the first human soul believing that it was somehow better than its parents which did not have human souls – poor souls.
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Hey, this blog rocks, man. Checkin’ on Chubby in Limbo I found this. Didn’t realise anyone gave a shite for religion these days. Certainly none of me mates does. Me old granny still fingers her beeds but she’s been off with the fairies for yonks. Rock on man.
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This is not a reply to Thom or Dick (or Harry) or Hilda, but to “Helen” :
As one of your “poor atheist … friends” (?), a “miserable atheist” to boot (either foot !) who “spews forth misinformed or mischievous claims” on this blog, on which even harsh comments are welcome from everyone – except when the commentator sinks into attempts at blatant blackmail (the promised “Six Steps” on (the new) condition that …) and now manifest manipulation by the concealing of one’s identity under another name – I try, as we say here in France, not to shoot at ambulances. G’day Jim. Did you really think readers of this blog, let alone its creator, would fail to recognize a Jacobite wolf in Helenistic clothing ? Your silly subterfuge reveals the depth of your dishonesty. Your faith has indeed blinded you. This is folly, Jim, fair dinkum folly !
Before I became an atheist forty years ago, as you know, Jim-Helen, I was a practising Catholic for thirty-five years, during twenty-five of which I was a professional churchman. I may never have been a paragon of “Christian charity”, but I try now as then to do unto others etc. So I will not insult you by questioning your intelligence or even suggesting, like you, that what you say has the value of vomit. But I must point out an internal contradiction in something you wrote : “The Church entrusts unbaptized innocents to the mercy of God”. God must be flattered that the Church would entrust Him with anything, and ask Himself the question “Who’s the Boss around here anyhow ?”. Whatever about that, readers must have been shocked when you credit a judge, let alone the Big Wig, with “acting JUSTLY and MERCIFULLY” with the . . . INNOCENT ! Heaven help the guilty.
Jim-Helen, you have been brainwashed into believing in a God who seems to be bound by the crazy teaching of His one, true Church. Godologians invented Limbo – therefore God has to fit in with the doctrine. Fortunately neither He nor your Limbo exists.
;
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So Helen has had a sex change. Or is she as trans(parently) wearing our excommunicated mate Jim’s clothing. Whatever, as the godless young say these days, Helen’s rant is a salient reminder that nutters abound.
If Hilda is wondering what the fuss is about she might be interested to know that earlier in this blog and on its predecessor an Opus-Dei type blogging as Jim(his real name) rabbited on incessantly about bleeding statues and consecrated wafers with bits of bloodied flesh attached and ascending and descending and transporting virgins and sundry other phenomena. He passed with flying colours, non-summa non-cum-laude, into excommunication and has languished limbless in limbo ever since. May he rest in peace.
And a warm welcome to Dick – obviously a young man with a promising future ahead of him (where else you might ask).
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I’m still confused. How do you know that Helen is Jim?
In reply to her/his original post, I would point out that it’s cavalier to claim that there’s no problem in waiting a few weeks to baptise a baby as, in an emergency, anyone can do it. What about those infant deaths which have occurred when there’s no one around to notice the ‘emergency’, the typical cot death case, for example? In any case, Helen doesn’t seem to be aware that even the Catholic church doesn’t believe in Limbo any more. See my blog post on the topic: http://www.hildareilly.com/blog/christopher-hitchens-and-limbo
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Thor, Marvel Comics’ superhero, has just changed sex but not Her/His name. Easier to do the Copenhagen with Odin’s son, the god of thunder, than our Yahweh, Allah, or the Three-in-One, all male, including, presumably, the volatile. A rose by any other, Jim. Say hello to Helen.
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This to respond to Hilda’s wondering about the certitude I share with Thom about Jim-Jekyll and Helen-Hyde. I’ve been wrong before. Last time was in 1942. It’s becoming a habit.
Jesus has been defined as being One Person with Two Natures, divine and human. Jim is one person with two identities. The existence of God is unproven and unproveable. But the single identity of Jim, as yet unproven, can and will I’m sure soon be proven, when he admits his guilty fraud and we mercifully forgive him and it. If he is innocent, we cannot act mercifully, just justly, and will willingly do penance by being lashed like King Henry 2 for murdering Becket in the cathedral.
That’s what you would call dense prose, I suppose, in both senses of the term. But my bet is that Gentleman Jim will do the decent thing and confess his sin to Father Leon who will be absolutely honored to give him absolution.
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It is interesting to note that today’s (Thursday 17 July) Sydney Morning Herald has limbo located squarely on the high seas in the middle of the Indian Ocean. It is most definitely not there described as a “place of unimagined happiness” as was claimed recently by Helen/Jim.
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Hi people. I’m Gabbie and my friend Dick told me about your blog that he stumbled on by accident.
I was brought up a catholic and know how Helen thinks – we were taught that way in school. I’m not sure I believe everything I was taught but – there must be something there.
I thought Limbo sounded good when I was young but I had a look at Hilda’s blog and now I’m not so sure. I didn’t know they had got rid of it.
Some interesting stuff in your blog.
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Nice to meet you, Gabbie and thanks for contributing to the conversation. Hope to hear more from you, either here or on my own blog.
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Helen is being given a hard time here. Whatever the truth about her identity personal vendettas should not feature in discussions of serious issues. Freedom of thought and expression are much valued and hard won rights in western democracies.
Frank, Thom, Hilda and Gabbie may not share Helen’s simple faith but she is entitled to proclaim and defend it and derive solace from it.
“Caritas Christi Urget Nos” has inspired many to lives of self sacrifice. We should value the heroism of many such souls.
I personally do not share Helen’s simple faith but like Voltaire I defend her right to proclaim it.
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Thanks for the encouragement Hilda. I’ll read your blog and this one but I’m not up to posting much. Hope you’re well.
Dick’s group takes up a lot of my time. No church stuff but – even so I like some of the stuff we used to sing as kids in school. “Hail Queen of Heaven”.
See ya.
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