When Christians think of Jesus,, they have the choice of multiple images that go back to their childhood. The most common, of course, is Jesus dying on the Cross, or “Ecce Homo” – Jesus, before Pilate, dripping with blood after His scourging – or at table with His Apostles at the Last Supper the night before. Others include the Babe in Bethlehem, the Divine Child teaching in the Temple, or being baptized by His cousin John. There is the Angry Jesus driving the money-changers from the Temple, but also the Sweet, the Gentle Jesus, in flowing robes and with a face that is almost smiling, surrounded by infants, saying “Suffer the little children to come unto Me”.
Today children are often in the news. We see them, terrified in overcrowded inflatable (and capsizable, sinkable) boats, or drowning in the sea, or lying dead when they are washed up onto the beach. But children are suffering in many other ways and places. I think of three in particular, all of them in the context of religion. The first is as victims of clerical pedophilia. The second is as victims of religious indoctrination. The third is as … Islamic terrorists ! TIME this week (April 25, 2016) reports that :
“One in five suicide attacks launched by Islamist extremist group Boko Haram was carried out by children in 2015, according to a new report by UNICEF. About 75% of the children used as bombers were female, some as young as 8.”
No comment (though yours will be welcome).
DELENDA RELIGIO
Blind Faith: Blind Folly 
The ultimate scapegoat.
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See ? I knew you could ! Congratulations (I hope Canadians don’t imitate their southern neighbors by saying “CongraDulations).
Water to your mill : today’s “The Guardian” carries a story headed : “Children bear the brunt of southern Africa’s devastating drought” – the worst in 35 years. The little children continue to suffer.
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It is indeed tragic that innocent defenceless children are brainwashed and recruited to do the dirty-work of criminal groups like Boko-Haram. It is perhaps an indicator of the crisis in ISIS that children are increasingly being used as the suicidal cannon-fodder of this appalling outfit.
It would be churlish to insinuate that the type of “indoctrination” which I and so many others were subjected to in our childhoods bears any comparison with the outrages of Boko-Haram. But the fact remains that organised religion relies critically on getting them while they’re young. Augustine got it largely right – if you get ’em young enough you’ve got ’em for life.
Some of us were motivated to question the articles of faith handed down to us by well-
meaning teachers who had themselves been similarly indoctrinated. One can only hope that those who are the tragic recipients of the appalling doctrines of Boko-Haram will see through the lies of their mentors.
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We have all seen those photos of Avuncular Adolph, patting the cheeks of adolescents in uniforms of the moribund Third Reich. But even Hitler never used 8 -year old girls with explosives strapped to their tiny bodies as weapons of maniacal destruction.
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How can Thom equate “indoctrination” of children with the lofty teachings of Jesus with “indoctrination” with false religions, atheist ideologies, Jihad, secular ethics and relativism?
Like Frank, the tactic is always to muddy the water of sound instruction both by lumping all false and true instruction as poisonous “religion” irrespectively and by pointing to human frailty of some Christian techers not living what they proclaim.
It would seem that you guys would prefer a Soviet style state control of child indoctrination contrary to parental wish than let parents decide the instruction of their children.
Augustine was on the right track when applied to sound principles. Parents, if capable and wise are the primary source of instruction in their role of nurturing their children. The psychology of a father role model supplemented by a mother is profound, a point selfishly ignored by disastrous “marriage equality” lobbyists. Parents have had the right for centuries of choice in entrusting catechetical instruction of their children in schools by voluntary catechists.to supplement their own role. This privilege is now being removed or eroded in certain states in favor of state controlled “gender equality ideology” indoctrination.
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Thankfully, children in North Korea are not being indoctrinated by Christ’s beatitudes and love of neighbor.
These little atheists are being well equipped for life, free of indoctrination in the values that has formed Western civilization. God bless them and their beloved leader..
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Once again Lumen maliciously imputes to me statements or insinuations that I did not make – perhaps a sign of his desperation. Read again what I wrote Lumen.
He is right of course in saying that the inculcation of religious beliefs in children should be the sole responsibility of the parents. The separation of Church and State should be a fundamental principle of a just and fair polity. The State should neither participate in nor fund the dissemination of religious beliefs. Faith based schools should be banned. Children do not benefit from being segregated on the basis of the religious beliefs of their parents.
He is not right, as any well-informed mature
citizen would agree, in his assertion that
indoctrination in his “one true religion” (Catholicism) is superior to properly structured
courses in ethics and civics.
The exhortation to brotherly love and tolerance which are enshrined in the Beatitudes are not evidenced in the smutty adolescent fixation of Catholic teaching on sex. Mature tolerant society has moved beyond those shallow fixations.
Lumen would do well to do likewise.
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When the state tried banning a faith based school in Goulburn, the wise bishop advised parents to send their children along to the state school, which of course could not cope. The government was forced to back down.
If faith based schools were banned, the Government would be sent bankrupt. It would also have complete control over citizen indoctrination as happens in totalitarian societies.
So Thom wants parents to be banned on selecting a school of their choice, whose standards of conduct and education are invariably higher than state schools, the parents receive considerably less funding and many parents, not of the particular faith, pay for the privilege of the superior formation.
But Thom wants BANNING of parents exercising their choice, at considerable personal expense, because they love their children and are prepared to make the sacrifice.
Thom would be happy with and fit well into a totalitarian state. Does Thom have children? I don’t know.
On Ethics program in schools as a substitute for parental choice of scripture lessons by volunteers , the ideology of the Ethics organisation, whose main aim is to undermine religion, is suspect. Parents unwittingly think the title Ethics means that children will harmlessly learn how to be polite and well behaved citizens. In fact, under the deceptive title, the ethics program involves indoctrination in secularist ideology incorporating relativism. I do not theorise, I know.
Ethics is supposed to answer the question “What ought I do”?
How do we answer that question?
Of course, without an authority greater than any human authority, WHO can give the answer? ; The U.S. President, a king, a prime minister, a state president, a dictator, the local postmaster? That is why denial of a superior authority leads to chaos and enslavement. This is obvious to the vast majority of humans, but not to the narrow band of short sighted atheists . It is so true that when one ceases to believe in God, one does not believe in nothing but in anything at all.
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Thom asserts, his opinion only:
” Faith based schools should be banned. Children do not benefit from being segregated on the basis of the religious beliefs of their parents.
He is not right, as any well-informed mature
citizen would agree, in his assertion that
indoctrination in his “one true religion” (Catholicism) is superior to properly structured
courses in ethics and civics.”
Why should they be banned. I thought liberal atheists disagreed with banning of free speech/ Hmmm. “Some ideals are more equal than others” – Animal farm. Thom is an under cover thought policeman.
Give the evidence that children do not benefit from segregation. I suspect that Thom has no experience in this matter nor evidence.
Remove the comma after “agree” and Thom is spot on. Well done, Thom but watch the punctuation.
Have you seen the “Ethics” propaganda syllabus??? Yuk.
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I will leave to Thom the dubious pleasure of debating with you, Jim, but I simply must add my two sense’ worth to blast your last line outta the warta. You claim that atheists like me do not believe “in nothing but in anything at all”. Surely you did not expect to get away with this nice, though unoriginal, turn of phrase. I am not surprised that you reject out of hand any claims for God’s miraculous intervention made by religions, or even by Christian denominations, other than your own, the One, Only, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Outrageous Catholic Church. Oral Roberts’ and his avatar televangelists’ miracles of healing are, for you, patent frauds. But miracles at Lourdes, Fatima and no doubt Laus (where the sanctuary oil is just as miraculous as Bernadette’s spring-water) are authentic, and declared as such by the One, Holy …Outrageous Catholic Church, which has succeeded in getting you and the rest of a billion plus credulous Catholic believers to believe in … “anything at all”. Bleeding hosts, Popes saved from assassination, little kids run over by a bus but protected by a Papal kiss and a miraculous medal : no point in going over all this again, Jim. Recent readers can check out the early posts of this Blog to discover the time you made me waste trying to get you to see how receptive and naïve you are in gobbing down the “evidence” for all such claims, curiously accepted, like your favorite “proof”, the Shroud of Turin, only by … Catholics ! It is you who believe in “anything at all”. I prefer to recognize fairy-tales and wishful thinking for what they are, stories for kids. Indeed, “Suffer the little children …”; “Unless you become as little children, you shall not enter the Kingdom of God”. At eighty, I hope you continue to enjoy your second, in fact perpetual, childhood.
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I agree with you, Thom of separation of state and religion, as does Catholic Church support. No state power should interfere with religious matters unless there is a serious conflict, such as encouraging violence.
I believe that you will find, though, that the principle of separation of state and religion means that no religion should be made the preferred religion supported by that state.
It certainly does not mean that the state can not contribute a just share of the contribution it makes to state schools to families of private students. Freedom of choice in education is a principle in non dictatorial or totalitarian states.
In fact, if there were no private schools, the state would need to find substantially increased funds to support education. I’m sure you are aware of this and the untruthful claims of those, e.g. teachers’ unions who try to stir up envy.
Under the terrible atheist regimes we have seen in recent decades, the state exercises complete suppression of choice, mandating state schools which indoctrinate in atheist based ideologies.
In Australia, parents may choose state schools or a private School. Private schools are not funded to the same degree as state schools, so parents make the sacrifice of forgoing their share of public funding received by state school students.
When socialist governments are in power, there is a tendency towards reducing the contribution to non state school families. Of course, false impressions are encouraged of rich versus poor, or class division, politics of envy. You know the usual old game.
So in free society, separation of church and state does not mean forcing citizens to accept only the state controlled system, which is the aim of anti religious regimes. Currently we see the push to have parental right to instruct their children at the appropriate time in sex and gender matters removed, and the state take control through dubious programs of this delicate matter. Brave new world? You bet.
Do you have children or grand children? Are you happy for the take over of state from parents’ rights. Do you remember Soviet days? Control over the family and the Church, the 2 pillars of defense against complete state control.
Talk to someone who lived under the Soviet system. I have very close contacts in this area.
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I did not claim originality, Frank. I just forget who gave us this pearl of wisdom.
Some give up belief in God and imagine super atoms, each a trinity of, thinking electrons, loving protons, free will neutrons; one atom with 3 persons.
The Church would require heaps more scientific evidence and rigorous examination by independent experts to accept these atoms, not the imagination of a lone “professor”.
As for miracles, of course, we judge them on their merit. We’ve been around this circle many times. Thom, who keeps claiming that I misrepresent him, keeps claiming I believe in fence post madonnas.
Of course there are many personal claims of miracles that we can discount and judge the evidence for ourselves. Some are certainly bogus or wild imagination.
There are very few declared miracles. The Church is not foolish enough to risk credibility unless an event is hors d’explication rationale.
Let’s not muddy the water but stick to the few that are well supported and defy normal explanation. The Church has not claimed the Shroud as a miracle and remains at arm’s length, but allows scientific analysis by reputable, unaligned, competent authorities like US Air Force and NASA. The Pope has stated that it is a scientific matter, not a religious matter and watched with interest as more and more amazing facts emerge which increasingly align(in my opinion) with the Resurrection event. Perhaps further analysis will provide some unimagined natural explanation, but I can not suppose what.
Meanwhile, we might temporarily put aside Fatima, Guadalupe, several Eucharistic miracles, incorruptible body of St. Bernadette et al and concentrate on the unfolding Shroud one.
Miracles are merely the Creator and sustainer of the physical universe, temporarily adapting his way of operation via predictable cause/effects to a different pattern for His particular purpose. It’s no big deal for an infinite power.
You state that other religions claim miracles. Perhaps so and if God chose, he could co operate, but I doubt if other claims are as rigorously tested as those major events examined scrupulously by the Church.
How do you think the Shroud image and all the associated details, e.g. Image superimposed over blood stains and time between blood stains and image being in close proximity to historical time between crucifixion and resurrection, based on rigor mortis and blood clotting timing?
You did visit Turin. You must be aware of the reputable evidence and continuing findings that are increasingly aligned with our belief.
How did the image form? You must have worked out a natural way, otherwise you would be worried sick over the future consequences of your disbelief.
As we know, there can be no conflict between true science and God’s revelation as is being demonstrated. Both align to the ONE TRUTH.
Pascal’s wager increasingly suggests we Catholics are on a winner, not like the mug punters who have backed the wrong nag.
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I’m loving my second mischievous childhood, Frank, especially when you give me such a big target to aim at.
My first mischievous childhood at MBK was pretty good too.
No more algebra or geometry to which to apply my impeccable logic is compensated by tearing holes through false, unreasoned disbeliefs of the duo, turned trio.
Thanks for the opportunity..
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Frank says ” I prefer to recognize fairy-tales and wishful thinking for what they are, stories for kids. Indeed, “Suffer the little children …”
You can huff and puff, Frank, but you will not blow down the house made of bricks.
Tell me your fairy tale of how the shroud image was formed, don’t just huff and puff.
Tell me your fairy tale of super atoms creating the universe.
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In spite of the fact that five days ago (April 25, 9:42 am) I declared discussion of the Shroud “terminated”, Jim sneakingly keeps coming back to it. The Shroud has replaced the First Cause as Jim’s Trojan Horse. Whatever the subject, he keeps challenging me to refute his arguments for its “authenticity”. I believe I have already done so, after my visit to Turin last year, in my detailed post of October 26, 2015. I even suggested in that post a personal explanation, which I have seen nowhere else, about how centuries after Calvary, devout believers may have fabricated, with no intention to con the crowd, a “relic” to promote devotion the way statues are supposed to do. No one pretends that statues of Mary are in fact the living Mother of Jesus (though some of them are claimed to have been caught crying real tears . . .). The craftspersons’ product was so perfect, because they used a real corpse to make it, that ever since people have taken it for the real McCoy. It’s just a theory. I have no intention of saying any more about it – or about the “super-atoms” which Jim continues to evoke, though he knows perfectly well that I breezily suggested they could just as well be a “First Cause”, the supposed exception to the famous Principle of Causality, as this immaterial though personal “Entity” believers invented and which they call “God”. Irony and Reductio ad Absurdum are beyond Jim, whose “house” is indeed made of bricks, as is his brain. (Hold on, James ! You and I know that you have a brain superior to most. You were “the brainy boy”, head and shoulders above the rest of us. You are a brilliant engineer. But you are so damned serious about everything that you could never see that my “insult” was a feigned provocation, fruit of my sick sense of humor and addiction to alliteration. Don’t take me to court,mate : it’s a joke, a sly reference to my post about the pointlessness of talking to … brick-walls ! You are bright, Jim, but sometimes you can be pretty dumb.)
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Several points in case Lumen thinks that I accept his absurd rants.
1. The North Korean people are subjected to the most vile form of indoctrination. They are not permitted to think for themselves. Lumen would have to agree that Catholics also are not permitted to think for themselves – they must, I repeat MUST, accept as fact the Articles of Faith of their Church. Lest Lumen again seeks to distort what I am saying let me be absolutely clear I am not, I repeat NOT, comparing the Catholic Church with the North Korean regime. But I do not resile from my assertion that Catholics are not free to think for themselves.
2. The red-herring of the Shroud of Turin should be taken off the menu – it is stale fish indeed – but Lumen has decidedly fishy tastes. I suggest that he read carefully the comprehensive article on the Shroud on Wikipedia. He would then realise that his bald assertions regarding the Shroud are wishful thinking.
3. The segregation of children in faith-based schools at an early age is clearly a contributor to the “us and them” mentality which lies at the heart of bigotry and prejudice.
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Does Thom live in the real world or some fantasy land. More and more, I suspect the latter.
He reminds me of an acquaintance who will only read Fairfax newspapers and listen to ABC radio and will not accept any other unbiased view.
1. Unlike atheist dictatorships, where disagreement with the state view means severe punishment, disagreement of a Catholic with Church teaching will, in the extreme case, exclude reception of Sacraments; no imprisonment, Thom.
Just like a football player who refuses to train or follow coach will be barred from playing. What rarified world does Thom inhabit? That’s reality. If you are voluntarily in the club, you accept the rules.
As a road user, can I think for myself and follow my own rules? Thom is a supposedly educated man!
2. Wikipedia seems to be Thom’s Fairfax or ABC. Google Shroud and there is a never ending list of articles. It is the most researched article now, or ever in the world. Read peer reviewed science.
OK, Thom, what is the Wikipedia explanation of the image formation?
I’m listening! What is your explanation? Similar silence from Frank. Hello, are you there??
3. Segregation of children in Faith based schools. Are you saying that state school children become bigoted and prejudiced? Do parents become envious? Do you have evidence, or just a random thought bubble?
Them and us? So, we should all toe the same line. You do agree that the state should run our lives, but no influence on those voluntarily belonging, by the nasty Church?
In former days, Australian Catholics were discriminated against in employment, and an us and them mentality probably arose. You are living in the past, again reinforcing my view that you are out of touch with the present time. My father, and probably Frank’s suffered this discrimination, which thankfully has abated.
Although I teach scripture in both primary and secondary state schools with good discipline, the general standard is better in non state schools and the reason why many non religious parents seek private education to protect their children from undesirable influence. You must be aware of this unless completely out of touch?
Additionally, the growing influence of anti religious lobbyists in influencing school syllabus , particularly in gender related matters is of concern to responsible parents, wishing to retain some influence in protection of their children.
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Lumen obviously has a vision or comprehension problem. I suggest that he read again what I specifically stated disavowing any comparison between the North Korean regime and the Catholic Church. He might also wish to ponder on the fate meted out to “sinners” by his Church – eternal punishment in hell’s horrifying burning torments. Banishment to a gulag is a walk in the park by comparison. LOL!!
There is no current consensus on what caused the image on the Shroud – certainly no consensus that it was caused by a self resurrecting dead body!! Lumen seems to be hooked on some childish sci-fi fantasy that a resurrecting body is accompanied by a mini atomic explosion – obviously based on no evidence whatsoever as there has never been a documented and authenticated occurrence. In fact, as Lumen would have to agree, the “sacred” texts confirm that no one at the time even witnessed the event let alone was blasted out of the water by the mini bomb.Again LOL!!
The inculcation of an “us and them” mentality is at the heart of racism and bigotry. The segregation of children at an early age on the basis of religious beliefs plays a part in the fostering of such a mentality. QED and FINIS.
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Frank jolted my school memories. I don’t remember ever having discussion or a joke with Frank. He seemed to me to be quite serious. I did banter with some, but can’t remember any lightness with Frank. Can he add to my memories?
I did leave after intermediate, so missed those final mature years.
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Jim, not surprisingly, does not remember “having discussion or a joke with Frank” when we were between the ages of 8 and 13. But he will remember what I wrote about those pre-pubescence years in my book, “From Illusions to Illumination”, page 17, self-published five, not seventy, years ago : “My best friend, Bruce, who lived next door, was non-Catholic and more precisely, Presbyterian . . . Of course we did not attend the same school. His was free, public and secular. Unlike us he did not have a school uniform, which simplified matters when the Public School kids set an ambush for the enemy, a.k.a. the Catholic, uniformed school-kids on their way home from school. Everyone knew which side everyone was on. We would throw stones at each other until some adult would intervene, thereby spoiling it all by interrupting a war that had been going on in Ireland for the last four hundred years.”
This may “jolt” Jim’s “school memories” and bring water to Thom’s mill about “the segregation of children at an early age on the basis of religious beliefs.”
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What resilience ! Bravo, Thom ! One more comment from Jim-Lumen about the Shroud and I will shroud it.
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Thank you Frank for those school day memories, which I did not, of course share, as they were out of school. I had a different locality and gang out of school.
What a boring life if we didn’t have an enemy to throw stones at after school. We were lucky, pre PC. Poor kids today, confined to IPads and PC. I doubt if Thom understands.
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